I think the male "gaze" is entirely natural. So is the female gaze. A person naturally gazes at that which they consider desirable or beautiful. Not to gaze at a particular subject when in most environments is something one learns. There are also times and places where gazing is entirely appropriate and knowing the difference is also part of the lesson.. Being a cultural thing, not everyone learns the same lesson.
It is not the only important lesson we don't always learn. The difficulty is compounded by people who want to be gazed at.
Thanks for this thoughtful examination of the recent news. The Menard situation is deeply sad and unsettling, especially for those in naturist communities who understand the strong sense of community and can perhaps better empathize with the unimaginable grief this series of events has inflicted on everyone involved.
I understand that GTA Skinny Dippers are struggling in the aftermath of the media attacks on their group, which is truly unfortunate. While I suspect that Bare Oaks will fare well, particularly due to Stéphane’s PR savvy and refusal to bow to threats, smaller groups might easily buckle under the pressure. I hope the GTA community can weather the storm and emerge stronger in the end.
I appreciate your comments about the male gaze. Many people don’t fully grasp this concept or how it affects various aspects of our culture, particularly in media, advertising, and art. It has significantly shaped cultural norms and the double standards women face, which I believe plays a major role in the gender disparities often discussed within the naturist scene. This influence likely deters some women from participating while, in my (perhaps unpopular) opinion, it likely encourages more men to try or join nudism, at least initially. Many in naturism understand that it’s about rejecting these societal influences and reclaiming agency over our own nakedness, but naturally, not everyone does. Who hasn’t heard discouraging comments from less enlightened nudists in these settings? Fortunately, it’s less common than it could be, but it still happens.
The emphasis is always on “the male gaze” and women feeling uncomfortable around it. There is also, however, the never-mentioned “female gaze”. The result might not be a perceived (or actual) sexual or physical threat, but it falls into that category of interpersonal relations which has given rise to the likes of incels and the heightening of so-called toxic masculinity as demonstrated by the likes of Andrew Tate.
More years ago than some reading this may remember was the famous Levi jeans commercial of a shapely young man undressing in the launderette, the focus as much on the female reaction as on the jeans. This evidently tapped into something that everyone recognised, that women are just as voyeuristic as men.
This counter-effect (toxic femininity? Surely not) starts at school where girls match boys for disparaging the opposite sex. Boys who don’t measure up to some ideal have suffered from girls’ comments at least as much as the other way round. Somehow, as we all reach adulthood, the narrative goes only one way.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, but only ever concentrating on one wrong solves neither.
Well said, Peter. My mother unintentionally emotionally abused her four sons as a consequence of the fracturing of her relationship with our father. The problem was that neither partner was able to be open and honest with the other. Their selfishness had consequences. Much of what I read in Jillian's article, especially the quotes from The Morning Star, suggest that the critics of naturism are trying to hurt/abuse 'their enemy' (whatever or whoever that might be). Although several appear to be academics their discourse presents prejudice as evidence...
The events at Olive Dell are certainly tragic. I do see it as a reminder that evil can exist anywhere. Sometimes naturists describe our community like a utopia where everyone lives in harmony. Certainly not the case.
I enjoyed your thoughts on “the male gaze”. I attended a work conference recently and noted, from across the room, as one of my fellow attendees looked an attractive waitress up and down, focusing on her backside as she walked away. It bothered me on a few levels.
First, he did it with such impunity, like it was the norm, to be expected, feeling no necessity to be more discrete. I get it folks, we all look. But there is looking, and then there is LOOKING, the latter being more objectifying.
I have a daughter, two daughters in law, and multiple nieces. Not that this gives me a special perspective more than any other person, but it was in my head. But the event angered me. Here was this young woman, earning some money, likely to help support herself while in school, doing a fine job, and she is having to experience this.
Finally, this same man had spoken to the group earlier in the day. I appreciated his comments and was impressed with his presentation. In this one 5-second interaction at that nights “social”, his stock plummeted in my eyes.
It was a lesson for me. Part reminder of what women go through every day, part an internal emphasis that I never want to be that guy, being part of the problem, delivering my “male gaze” like an inherent right, oblivious to it’s destructive power. Finally, it gave me thanks in knowing that both my sons comport themselves better and will raise their sons, should they have any, with more respect and class than displayed to me this evening.
In any social group and in any situation, there will always be those who choose to put their ignorance and stupidity on full display. State troopers see the aftermath on our highways every single day. So if someone is gonna demonize nudists and naturists because of the actions of someone who is in that category, then you would have to demonize car owners, using that same logic. It is this same reasoning that one would use to demonize all nudist/naturist men because of the actions of one or a few. If one expects clothing to protect women, he will be sadly disappointed. Do we not hear complaints about the "male gaze" outside of nude environments? It is this same flawed reasoning that would lead one to conclude that nudism and naturism are inherently bad because of some misguided notion of negative effects that are unfounded and unproven, or that modesty is somehow linked to clothing, in which case the standards of modesty are fluid, depending on which segment of society you focus on and which decade. I am a nudist for reasons of health, convenience, and comfort; and I dream of a day when nudity without shame is the norm.
One wonders how much influence decades of advertising and marketing presenting women as desirable has had on the overtness of the male gaze. Most advertising uses attractive people. Even advertising targeting women (cosmetics, clothing, hair products) are all tailored around looking better and being more attractive. Society has been brainwashing us for ages about the beauty culture and teaching us to appreciate beauty. I absolutely accept that the behaviour of many men towards women is inappropriate and harmful. Men need to own that behaviour and do better. Perhaps it is incumbent on us all to call out such behaviour, not only in men but also in advertising and media, and stop buying those products that use such tactics.
Certainly the male gaze is a major obstacle for women willing to embrace naturism lifestyle..No one has the exact idea as how to stop men from this. Even when women are clothed they have to face this awkward gaze. We can just hope that men may stop this really unfair gaze towards women & women numbers may increase to choose naturism lifestyle..
The male gaze is partly biological for straight men (most of us) and partly conditioned.
I appreciate seeing women as awesome and varied people much more than gazing at them as sexual objects.
I think inside most men agree
Being in a naturist/nudist environment helps me solidify that shift to seeing amazing people as opposed to bodies I fantasize about. It’s painful to be stuck in the fantasizing role and liberating and expansive to realize the incredible variety and complexity of all humans, including women.
I feel sorry for every man and human who only sees parts of us and can’t get past that
Men have a natural desire for women (at least straight men) and that’s normal. What’s not normal is the over-sexualization we do in our minds, speech and behavior
Sometimes it’s very subtle and we have to be very aware of doing it. The natural part is natural. The ramped up, increased focus part is learned and I believe can be unlearned
Agree to seriously disagree. Who are you to say what’s not normal as to the workings of mine or anyone’s mind? The natural includes the ramped up. Nothing here needs to be unlearned.
Quite right. Nothing triggers me like misandrous demands for reengineering males. Suggest the same for females and you're labeled misogynist. In reality, we're not all that different.
Well, maybe my Evangelical Christian upbringing is responsible for many of my views on this. But I'm only apologizing for not realizing sooner that "modesty culture" is a lie.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, society has different rules for men vs women. And generalizing broadly does not help us understand this any better. There are situations where “the male gaze” can be desired and situations where it is completely inappropriate. The same is true for “the female gaze.”
As social beings we must learn to tune in to the social environment around us to help guide appropriate behavior. Applying generalities does not help us learn this very necessary part of living.
Just as people with nudephobia (much more understandable term than gymnophobia) have a kink, men with male gaze are exhibiting kink. Your body and all body parts are normal and natural. Call these people out on their kinks.. Don't doubt for a second that they are kinky. Don't give them power over you.
I sort of question if there is more male gaze now than in the past when nudity, including female nudity, was more popular. In fact that there is a lot of statistical evidence that most young men are becoming less sexual.
I just have a feeling that it is now way too easy to post and distribute nude and fake nude images all over the Internet and everywhere else than in the past. Let's face it, America has been trending more reactionary (politer term than fascist) and more potential nudists just want to "cover their asses" if the situation trends darker.
Ahhh, the female gaze. One of life's little pleasures!
The male gaze: one of females' endless issues. I'd swear if all males disappeared from the earth they's still find new issues to get worked up about. Lack of males to do household repairs, and shovel the snow?
I think the male "gaze" is entirely natural. So is the female gaze. A person naturally gazes at that which they consider desirable or beautiful. Not to gaze at a particular subject when in most environments is something one learns. There are also times and places where gazing is entirely appropriate and knowing the difference is also part of the lesson.. Being a cultural thing, not everyone learns the same lesson.
It is not the only important lesson we don't always learn. The difficulty is compounded by people who want to be gazed at.
Thanks for this thoughtful examination of the recent news. The Menard situation is deeply sad and unsettling, especially for those in naturist communities who understand the strong sense of community and can perhaps better empathize with the unimaginable grief this series of events has inflicted on everyone involved.
I understand that GTA Skinny Dippers are struggling in the aftermath of the media attacks on their group, which is truly unfortunate. While I suspect that Bare Oaks will fare well, particularly due to Stéphane’s PR savvy and refusal to bow to threats, smaller groups might easily buckle under the pressure. I hope the GTA community can weather the storm and emerge stronger in the end.
I appreciate your comments about the male gaze. Many people don’t fully grasp this concept or how it affects various aspects of our culture, particularly in media, advertising, and art. It has significantly shaped cultural norms and the double standards women face, which I believe plays a major role in the gender disparities often discussed within the naturist scene. This influence likely deters some women from participating while, in my (perhaps unpopular) opinion, it likely encourages more men to try or join nudism, at least initially. Many in naturism understand that it’s about rejecting these societal influences and reclaiming agency over our own nakedness, but naturally, not everyone does. Who hasn’t heard discouraging comments from less enlightened nudists in these settings? Fortunately, it’s less common than it could be, but it still happens.
The emphasis is always on “the male gaze” and women feeling uncomfortable around it. There is also, however, the never-mentioned “female gaze”. The result might not be a perceived (or actual) sexual or physical threat, but it falls into that category of interpersonal relations which has given rise to the likes of incels and the heightening of so-called toxic masculinity as demonstrated by the likes of Andrew Tate.
More years ago than some reading this may remember was the famous Levi jeans commercial of a shapely young man undressing in the launderette, the focus as much on the female reaction as on the jeans. This evidently tapped into something that everyone recognised, that women are just as voyeuristic as men.
This counter-effect (toxic femininity? Surely not) starts at school where girls match boys for disparaging the opposite sex. Boys who don’t measure up to some ideal have suffered from girls’ comments at least as much as the other way round. Somehow, as we all reach adulthood, the narrative goes only one way.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, but only ever concentrating on one wrong solves neither.
Well said, Peter. My mother unintentionally emotionally abused her four sons as a consequence of the fracturing of her relationship with our father. The problem was that neither partner was able to be open and honest with the other. Their selfishness had consequences. Much of what I read in Jillian's article, especially the quotes from The Morning Star, suggest that the critics of naturism are trying to hurt/abuse 'their enemy' (whatever or whoever that might be). Although several appear to be academics their discourse presents prejudice as evidence...
The events at Olive Dell are certainly tragic. I do see it as a reminder that evil can exist anywhere. Sometimes naturists describe our community like a utopia where everyone lives in harmony. Certainly not the case.
I enjoyed your thoughts on “the male gaze”. I attended a work conference recently and noted, from across the room, as one of my fellow attendees looked an attractive waitress up and down, focusing on her backside as she walked away. It bothered me on a few levels.
First, he did it with such impunity, like it was the norm, to be expected, feeling no necessity to be more discrete. I get it folks, we all look. But there is looking, and then there is LOOKING, the latter being more objectifying.
I have a daughter, two daughters in law, and multiple nieces. Not that this gives me a special perspective more than any other person, but it was in my head. But the event angered me. Here was this young woman, earning some money, likely to help support herself while in school, doing a fine job, and she is having to experience this.
Finally, this same man had spoken to the group earlier in the day. I appreciated his comments and was impressed with his presentation. In this one 5-second interaction at that nights “social”, his stock plummeted in my eyes.
It was a lesson for me. Part reminder of what women go through every day, part an internal emphasis that I never want to be that guy, being part of the problem, delivering my “male gaze” like an inherent right, oblivious to it’s destructive power. Finally, it gave me thanks in knowing that both my sons comport themselves better and will raise their sons, should they have any, with more respect and class than displayed to me this evening.
In any social group and in any situation, there will always be those who choose to put their ignorance and stupidity on full display. State troopers see the aftermath on our highways every single day. So if someone is gonna demonize nudists and naturists because of the actions of someone who is in that category, then you would have to demonize car owners, using that same logic. It is this same reasoning that one would use to demonize all nudist/naturist men because of the actions of one or a few. If one expects clothing to protect women, he will be sadly disappointed. Do we not hear complaints about the "male gaze" outside of nude environments? It is this same flawed reasoning that would lead one to conclude that nudism and naturism are inherently bad because of some misguided notion of negative effects that are unfounded and unproven, or that modesty is somehow linked to clothing, in which case the standards of modesty are fluid, depending on which segment of society you focus on and which decade. I am a nudist for reasons of health, convenience, and comfort; and I dream of a day when nudity without shame is the norm.
One wonders how much influence decades of advertising and marketing presenting women as desirable has had on the overtness of the male gaze. Most advertising uses attractive people. Even advertising targeting women (cosmetics, clothing, hair products) are all tailored around looking better and being more attractive. Society has been brainwashing us for ages about the beauty culture and teaching us to appreciate beauty. I absolutely accept that the behaviour of many men towards women is inappropriate and harmful. Men need to own that behaviour and do better. Perhaps it is incumbent on us all to call out such behaviour, not only in men but also in advertising and media, and stop buying those products that use such tactics.
Certainly the male gaze is a major obstacle for women willing to embrace naturism lifestyle..No one has the exact idea as how to stop men from this. Even when women are clothed they have to face this awkward gaze. We can just hope that men may stop this really unfair gaze towards women & women numbers may increase to choose naturism lifestyle..
The male gaze is partly biological for straight men (most of us) and partly conditioned.
I appreciate seeing women as awesome and varied people much more than gazing at them as sexual objects.
I think inside most men agree
Being in a naturist/nudist environment helps me solidify that shift to seeing amazing people as opposed to bodies I fantasize about. It’s painful to be stuck in the fantasizing role and liberating and expansive to realize the incredible variety and complexity of all humans, including women.
I feel sorry for every man and human who only sees parts of us and can’t get past that
So many of us have suffered conditioning regarding "men's gaze and attitudes" that some reconditioning is often necessary. https://jochanaan.wordpress.com/2022/03/22/breaking-naked/
Strongly disagree. No reconditioning/reprogramming required. Stop apologizing for your testosterone! We are exactly as nature intended us to be.
Men have a natural desire for women (at least straight men) and that’s normal. What’s not normal is the over-sexualization we do in our minds, speech and behavior
Sometimes it’s very subtle and we have to be very aware of doing it. The natural part is natural. The ramped up, increased focus part is learned and I believe can be unlearned
Agree to seriously disagree. Who are you to say what’s not normal as to the workings of mine or anyone’s mind? The natural includes the ramped up. Nothing here needs to be unlearned.
Yup, that's what I'm saying; and I'm perfectly fine with females behaving this way as well. One of life's little pleasures 😊
Quite right. Nothing triggers me like misandrous demands for reengineering males. Suggest the same for females and you're labeled misogynist. In reality, we're not all that different.
Well, maybe my Evangelical Christian upbringing is responsible for many of my views on this. But I'm only apologizing for not realizing sooner that "modesty culture" is a lie.
Indeed. One need only watch the runways of France, movie festivals included, to realize modesty is far from many minds.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, society has different rules for men vs women. And generalizing broadly does not help us understand this any better. There are situations where “the male gaze” can be desired and situations where it is completely inappropriate. The same is true for “the female gaze.”
As social beings we must learn to tune in to the social environment around us to help guide appropriate behavior. Applying generalities does not help us learn this very necessary part of living.
My two cents.
Just as people with nudephobia (much more understandable term than gymnophobia) have a kink, men with male gaze are exhibiting kink. Your body and all body parts are normal and natural. Call these people out on their kinks.. Don't doubt for a second that they are kinky. Don't give them power over you.
I sort of question if there is more male gaze now than in the past when nudity, including female nudity, was more popular. In fact that there is a lot of statistical evidence that most young men are becoming less sexual.
I just have a feeling that it is now way too easy to post and distribute nude and fake nude images all over the Internet and everywhere else than in the past. Let's face it, America has been trending more reactionary (politer term than fascist) and more potential nudists just want to "cover their asses" if the situation trends darker.
That's "life"....men are GENERALLY turned on by "looks"........women GENERALLY by character!
That's not hardwired; it's conditioned into us. And as others have said, women like to look too!
"With these hungry eyes
One look at you and I can't disguise
I've got hungry eyes"
If Eric Carmen wrote a song about it, it must be human nature.
That too!
Ahhh, the female gaze. One of life's little pleasures!
The male gaze: one of females' endless issues. I'd swear if all males disappeared from the earth they's still find new issues to get worked up about. Lack of males to do household repairs, and shovel the snow?