Some interesting points, Fred, and yes- I do live in a place where nudity is tolerated or even embraced far more than in America. But while I'm one of those who often suggest that many naturists' fear of causing offence is a perceived fear rather than one that is borne out of actual experience, I'm also mindful of the fact that some have careers and other factors to consider. I suspect, however, that they would be valid concerns to a much greater proportion of naturists in America than to those here in New Zealand.
Another point you raised is that young nudists might be far more interested in naked parties, trips to a nude beach or nude hiking than any landed club. I would go even further than that by saying that young people are not even interested in the labels "naturist" or "nudist". A week ago I returned from six days at Kiwiburn - New Zealand's regional Burning Man festival. On the Saturday night over 1,000 people ran and danced naked around the dying embers of the effigy - mostly young folks who never consider themselves as naturists. Skinny-dipping in New Zealand has always been acceptable at beaches and rivers and there would be few folks here who have never done that.
So, yes, I agree that landed clubs will likely fade away over time. New Zealand is a Common Law country, and it is becoming very rare now for anyone to be arrested for simply being naked in an appropriate public place, due to ongoing court precedents being set. There is becoming less need for landed clubs to exist - especially for younger folks.
For these reasons I'm less inclined these days to promote naturism as a philosophy or even to wear the label. Rather, I'm more than happy to advocate for nudity to become more and more acceptable in society as just another dress code for appropriate activities. You don't need a label for that, any more than you need a label for wearing a T-shirt.
It could be that the nudist label needs to be discarded. I consider myself a nudie but I don't treat it as my identity, any more than if I thought of myself as a foodie or a roadie.
I would suggest that an openly naturist person in parts of Wisconsin has more to fear then one in LA who, in turn, has far more to fear than one in new Zealand. Even in the community where I live in Southern California, if someone was a teacher and it got out they were an active nudist, would lose their job in a heartbeat.
Over the years I’ve been hot and cold over the naturism/nudism movement but have never lost my appetite for nude recreation.
As I’ve commented elsewhere, the NN narrative hasn’t really changed over the last 15++ years. Nor has it seemed to have visibly moved the needle in terms of acceptance and adoption.
I reckon what the NN crowd probably don’t get is a lot people don’t mind nudity, but don’t, nor want to identify as a NN for all sorts of reasons.
I myself shy away from that tag more often than not because it always felt like a badly tailored wrap that never really fit me right.
Maybe what younger people can relate to far more readily is the concept of body liberation. This concept is something they can probably shape and own the way they want to own it. You only need look at gender identity to see how quickly a grass roots concept can catch on and rapidly become mainstream. To the point corporations feel obligated to recognise and support it.
Part of the problem is something Fred has eluded to. You look at the NN demographic and it’s dominated by a lot of older people. Quite often grumbling about how marginalised NN is.
Contrast that to what’s happening in other circles and the philosophies and ideas might not suit that well with the NN crowd, but arguably, has a much greater ground swell that can relate and join in on terms they’re comfortable with.
I like the idea of body liberation. Young people have a completely different outlook on life. They are all about adventure, risk taking, and new experiences. If you could make social nudity seem "edgy" or rebellious, you'd have better luck in attracting them.
If you want to reach out to young people, you have to use young people in the outreach. When I was young, we had a saying, "Don't trust anyone over thirty." It is still useful in understanding young people. Today it can be roughly translated into, "Okay boomer." but it is being extended to millennials as they cruise through middle age.
Listening to this, I think I heard exactly the same things back in the '60s.
Very well-written. It's true that we'll always be outliers in general society and sad to see so many clubs going going textile. To survive, the clubs that are left might incorporate like Glen Eden did. I forget which others have done the same, if there were any others.. All we can do is watch out for each other and keep networking, holding events at homes where people are able to host- things like that. I too hope younger people become interested and find out what a beautiful lifestyle Nudism/Naturism is.
I didn't. I had an AA when I came to California. I just took a few courses over a couple of years right around 1980. My BA is from Cal State Dominguez Hills, which I didn't manage until 1996.
Very interesting article. What you have said is really compelling to think. As you have said rightly, travel clubs & home nudism can be a reality of the future. Is there any alternative? This is the thought which occupies mind after going through the article.
Because of the low density of the nudist population, I see it as inevitable.
The nature of at-home nudism is changing. The internet is replacing social clubs in general, not just nudist clubs. People are cocooning and hanging out online rather than going out for activities. Social media has somewhat displaced socializing in person.
At-home nudism overlaps with travel club nudism. At one point you might have a few friends over for a clothing optional evening. There's not much difference between that and a travel club having a meet and greet at your house, except that group events have more more planning and less spontaneity.
BTW, I consider solo freehiking to be an offshoot of at-home nudism. I could classify it separately but I see no point.
Likewise, if I go for a nude hike solo or with a friend, there's not a lot of difference between that and going on a nude hike with a travel club. The larger group has more resources and is probably seen as less threatening in an encounter with textiles. OTOH, there is organizational overhead and a lack of spontaneity with a group.
Travel club nudism does events. You rent a venue for nude bowling or swimming or whatever. They can be an introduction to club nudism (assuming there's one in your area) by having an event there. You can have meet-and-greets at member's homes. (Not that many are willing these days.) You can organize a hike or a trip to the beach as a group. You can join in on other events, like the WNBR or the Bare to Breakers. This way you meet people's need for IRL social contact and experiences without the cost of a multi-million dollar facility.
The late and lamented "Nude Comedy LA" is an example of an event that was primarily attended by members of SoCal Naturists, a travel club. (I hope they find a nude friendly buyer.) They also organize hikes, beach trips, bowling nights, spa days, and the like. Most of the attendance for the LA WNBR comes from them. In addition, there are several smaller travel clubs in San Diego, Orange County, and a couple in Los Angeles that usually share events.
The Greater Los Angeles area doesn't seem to be able to support landed clubs. Even properties in the middle of nowhere are worth several million dollars. I see club after club go on the market to be sold for textile purposes.
"If a blog readership is already nudist or nudist-friendly, then it is impossible to promote nudism there."
Obviously, there are no minds to change among naturist blog readers as far as naturism itself is concerned. Don't bother carrying coals to Newcastle. But there's one BIG exception - persuading readers to be open about naturism and promote it to open-minded friends and relatives.
What we write can suggest and encourage new ways to enjoy naturism. Even more important than that is encouraging home naturists to come out of their caves, because social nudity is more enjoyable the more widely it is understood and participated in by others. I mean, how many naturists will you meet hiking alone in the desert? "The cave's (or trail's) a fine and private place, but none, I think, do there embrace" - to slightly misquote Andrew Marvell.
Regarding encountering others while hiking naked, "Nobody complains, and I get positive comments from textiles." Exactly. Naturists shouldn't be so afraid of what others might think of them. Depending on individual circumstances, negative reactions are probably much less likely than generally feared. Sure, there are still plenty of people who also hate LGBTQ+ people. Most of them do so for "religious" reasons, but hatred isn't supposed to be a religious virtue. "Noli illegitimi carborundum" should be taken to heart by naturists.
"I think landed clubs are only going to become less common. The cost of real estate prevents new ones from forming."
The cost of real estate isn't the real problem. In fact, land is more expensive on average in England than in the U.S., because the average population density is much higher in England. Yet naturism is much more popular in England than in the U.S. That's due, first, to the effectiveness of the British Naturism organization at promoting naturism as compared to U.S. organizations. And, second, the higher population density in England makes visiting naturist places much easier and cheaper. Real estate costs have little, if anything, to do with the difference.
The U.S. has far more open space - hence cheaper land - but that's a problem, since people on average have to travel much farther to visit naturist clubs and resorts. Yet if most naturists were in "urban centers", then the expensiveness of land really is a problem for landed clubs.
The real problem, however, is TOO FEW naturists. Current naturists can't do anything about the cost of real estate. But they certainly can - if they choose to - do much more to promote naturism.
"Travel clubs and at-home nudism are the future."
Home naturism overly limits the social aspect. And most travel clubs seem to be doing as poorly these days as the landed ones, as far as I can tell. The one I belong to is mostly old people - who won't be around much longer. And it has only half a dozen events per year, at most. So why would a young person join or see value in starting one - unless the number of younger naturists began increasing at a good rate? Besides, where is a "travel club" going to travel? Where can they go in "urban centers" - except for the homes of other naturists, who they'll have difficulty finding?
"Naturists shouldn't be so afraid of what others might think of them."
Yes and no. Freehiking has a significant chance of a negative encounter leading to a police presence waiting for you at the trailhead - even if nudity is perfectly legal. Even if I am not arrested, a hostile encounter with the police would be traumatic.
I work to avoid such encounters. I hike mindfully so that I don't get surprised. I do not freehike if there is another car at the trailhead. I do not hike on trails that see much traffic. I avoid weekends. My trails are remote and not easily accessed, usually in a wilderness area. (The people deep in the back country are a different breed from the common day hiker.) Maybe once a year I encounter an unexpected hiker on the trail. It usually goes okay though sometimes the other party will hurry by with their eyes averted despite me using my hat as a coverup.
I am fortunate to live in a state where nudity is not illegal except for a few local ordinances -though an unlucky encounter with the wrong person could still land me in the back of a police cruiser. There are a small number of locations on public land (beaches and hot springs) where nudity is common and accepted. It is just a long trip to get to them.
There used to be a nude theater troupe about 40 minutes from home where I took acting lessons and sometimes acted in shows. It is up for sale but there are no takers. The owner said he was driven out of the nude theater business by "cyber bullies" who attacked his main livelihood.
I am retired, so I have no job to risk. I live close to wilderness. It is 3 hours by freeway to the nearest nude resort - though it has been listed on the market. My children are long since grown and gone, so that risk is gone. The WNBR is still safe in LA. So is the Bare to Breakers in SF. I consider the situation in Wisconsin and count my blessings.
I'll continue this later but we've just been informed we're in an "immediate" flash flood warning zone, so I need to check things out.
I guess it depends on the context. If the situation is such that a person could cause a naturist physical, social, legal, reputational, or other sorts of harm, then prudence is called for. But if someone simply expresses contempt or disgust for a naturist's nudity - perhaps without actually seeing it - that's another matter. If the person is of some importance in one's life, then try to reason with him/her. Otherwise, just ignore the stupid opinion.
"'Noli illegitimi' carborundum" should be taken to heart by naturists.
I would generally agree with that.
In the states, there's a nasty tendency not to stop at expressing disgust and moving on. There seems an urge to carry it beyond that. America was never a tolerant utopia to begin with but intolerance seems to be growing again. Intolerance of nudity is on the rise along with all the other intolerances. I refer you to the mess in Wisconsin and suggest the same thing could happen in a majority of states in the Union.
I can be bolder online than in person. That's because if you don't like a blog, you just don't read it. I always give fair warning. It is the functional equivalent of a nude hiking groups sending a clothed hiker up ahead to warn any oncoming hikers. Can't do that in real life if you're solo.
WRT the WNBR in LA, the police has told us to keep minors out of it. There's a particular subculture they don't want up in arms. Online I saw a guy posting videos of a young girl viewing the ride and trying to raise the same kind of ruckus that was raised in Wisconsin. (Didn't work here because Sacramento is full of progressive Democrats.) We live in the age of the heckler's veto.
In the early days of U.S. naturism (1930), there was a lot of opposition. That was also true in countries like England and France, which now generally accept naturism and public nudity within certain limits. In the U.S. police interfered with nudists even in private gymnasiums - in New York City, in fact.
But even in the U.S. things eventually got better in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. More recently, unfortunately, the situation is going downhill, with all the right-wing culture warriors throwing tantrums about almost anything they can imagine to hate. This, of course, is aided and abetted by groups with political agendas.
Why, for instance, is there now so much bitter hatred of trans people? It's because politicians get more contributions and support from angry people. Remember the Scopes trial of 1925? The issue there was the teaching of evolution in schools. The prosecutor in that case was the washed-up politician, William Jennings Bryan. Fortunately, he lost the case. The problems in New York for naturists were the work of another washed-up politician, Al Smith - who, like Bryan, had previously run for President. Is this beginning to sound familiar?
Southern California had similar problems in that period, with the earliest naturist clubs persecuted by DAs and police - even as late as the 1970s in the case of Ed Lange's Elysium.
And, lo and behold, what do we have today? Laws in right-wing states against teaching about "critical race theory" or LGBTQ+ people. Although religious principles may be the pretext, the real purpose is mostly political, simply weaponizing the ease with which so many people can be duped. This is what's really going on in Wisconsin. That directly impacts naturists, but at least we're such a small and closeted cohort that we're not (yet) the main targets. What can I say? Sometimes human nature really sucks.
"It's because politicians get more contributions and support from angry people."
Hit the nail right on the head!
I was there for Elysium. 'Young Mensa' and 'Au Naturel' from Cal. State Northridge visited regularly. I got free admission in exchange for washing the dog, Murph. He was always a mass of mats and burrs.
I remember Elysium's battles with LA County Supervisor Mike Antonavich. He was in a district that had to be wildly gerrymandered to get a single conservative elected. (They didn't do it to get a conservative elected. They did it to keep their own districts completely liberal.) He stayed in that office most of his life.
Most of the complaints were neighbors unhappy about heavy traffic on a narrow one-lane road. Antonavich was trying to use that to either bankrupt or shut the place down by denying their use permit. The roads really were extremely difficult to use on weekends and evenings. Ed Lange put a lot of money into improving them. Antonavich failed and Ed Lange won.
The actual cause of Elysium's demise was Ed Lange's demise. (1995) His daughters had no interest in nudism and sold the property. (2000) That's the fate of a lot of California clubs.
Members tried reopening it in Malibu but the membership had declined and it failed. Now it lives on as the Southern California Naturists Association, a travel club.
Naturists/Nudists on this thread seem to have smaller cojones than AA/Negro Civil Rights era Heroes of just a few decades ago. My good acquaintance with the most recent fallen Hero, the late Rep Rev John Lewis, was famously arrested in ProTest for FREEDOM nearly Fifty ( 50 ) times, if not more; & he cheerily spoke of those events as Badges of COURAGE taking the #USgovt to talk on its myriad hypocrisies as many bygone trailblazers have done before Him.
“Every actual state is corrupt. GOOD MEN MUST NOT OBEY laws too well.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson
It is too easy to be satisfied with their club membership. It is too easy to live in a closet for most people to take even the slightest risk.
There could be no closet for the black person. You couldn't be black every other weekend behind closed gates with complete confidentiality. It was fight or stay oppressed forever.
I agree with Fred on some points, but not all. Promoting naturism is very important. It's not time wasted. The more open-minded people learn about naturism the better for all of us. Promoting naturism provides an opportunity to meet additional like-minded friends. And it remains true that there's strength in numbers.
"In the past, nudist parents often did not raise nudist — or even nude-tolerant — children. That’s still evident today."
I think it's just the opposite. From the naturist history I've read, U.S. families went together to naturist places MUCH more often than today. And for sure, fathers and male children had little problem being naked at YMCA swimming pools and the like. (But I don't know whether that was similar on the female side.) Now most adult males seem fearful even about being naked with their peers. I can't disagree that the U.S. has some pretty bad hang-ups these days. It's a really messed-up country. "Land of the free" - but the home of the easily terrified.
"The people one needs to promote nudism to aren't nudists."
Well, yeah. What needs to be promoted to naturists is making an effort to help non-naturists get the message.
"I meet many nudists who keep their nudism a secret from their kids, never mind including them in the fun. Or conveniently wait until the kids have left home to get involved."
That may be too often true, but it certainly leaves kids with unhealthy ideas about nudity. Kids should learn about human bodies of both sexes before their teen years. (Many do anyhow, but not in the best way.) Naturist parents have a real advantage in this respect. Other countries, especially in Europe, are more sensible about this. U.S. Naturists should follow that example. Of course, if one's spouse is opposed to naturism, then there is a very serious problem.
A primary tenet of naturism is that a body's appearance isn't an important matter, at least as long as it's in good health. When I was young, kids saw naked bodies of the same sex regularly. It's NOT healthy that doesn't seem to happen now. For some unclear reason, nudity has become more controversial in the U.S. now than in the past. U.S. society in many ways has become very sick in recent years. The ideas of tolerance and diversity are faring rather poorly. But perhaps that's just tribalism and human nature.
"For a long time, young people really weren't welcomed in nudism because resorts were (and some still are) dominated by people hostile to "youth" culture, i.e. free love and smoking dope, loud parties and death metal music, and all that."
Is that really "youth culture" today? Seems more true of the 1970-80 period. Young people were much more prevalent at naturist places back then - and were also naked on college campuses (personal observation) and clothing-optional beaches. Didn't seem to make them unwelcome at resorts. And for that matter, there's still a large cohort of adults of all ages who indulge in the "party culture".
"Consider the population/age distribution of a club. If almost all of the people are middle-aged or older, you won’t attract a lot of young people."
Absolutely true. And very sad. But, you know, with low-paying jobs, high rents, and large college debt loads (for some), too many young people these days can afford only basic necessities, if that much. Especially once they start having their own kids. Middle age or older folks tend to have free time, plenty of savings, and they own most of the housing. Too few young people can afford visits to naturist resorts or time spent in non-landed club activities. And if they can afford it, there aren't many naturists their own age.
"And there are few attempts at public persuasion."
Very true. But, um, doesn't that mean individual naturists themselves are at fault?
"People who promote "the only enemy is your own fear" line of thinking don't get what it is like to live in a place where being a social nudist can cost you your job, get your kids ridiculed, and put you at risk of getting a visit from the local children's welfare investigators."
Yes, that is the excuse most naturists seem to use for staying in the closet. But where's the data behind it? Are there any statistics at all for how many people lost a job for being "out" as a naturist? Or suffer from the ridicule of others? There might be a concern for teachers and others who work with children. But factory workers? People in skilled technical jobs? Staff at retail stores? Independent people who're plumbers, electricians, etc.?
And how is it that Florida - one of the most right-wing states in the nation - has the largest number of naturist clubs and resorts - as well as an active young naturist group? It's also the home base of AANR. Texas - equally as far right - also has lots of clubs and resorts. And, incidentally, Sunsport Gardens in Loxahatchee, FL especially welcomes families.
"The best way to promote nudism is to be a good person who just happens to be a nudist and neither hide the fact nor be evangelical about it."
True - as far as it goes. But is it "evangelical" to be open with others about naturism and explain what's good about it? Is it a bad idea to invite others to at least give it a try?
"My first suggestion is to be somewhere that is at least moderately nude-tolerant. By concentrating in a few urban centers, gay people created enclaves where they were safer. Nudists need to do the same."
People shouldn't have to move hundreds or thousands of miles to find a "nude-tolerant" place. Look at Florida, for example. Concentrating in urban centers isn't all that great either. For one thing, they're more expensive. If young people have trouble making ends meet, urban centers aren't a great choice.
"The people one needs to promote nudism to aren't nudists. It is people NOT into nudism who might be curious about it."
Yeah, and also don't bother promoting religion to the Pope.
"the best possible place for organized outreach would be college campuses."
That may well be the best choice. Where else can some many young adults be found in one place? And probably the highest percentage of open-minded people, too. But figuring out how to reach college students is the tricky part. What specific ways can you suggest to do that? Is AANR about to send missionaries to campuses for that purpose?
"When I was a student at Cal State, Northridge, there was a nudist club on campus"
Hell, at Stanford in the 1970s there was a small lake right on campus behind one of the big dorms where sometimes half the students there were naked. Nudity wasn't a problem if one preferred it. And it was about 50-50 male/female. But the lake usually dries up in the spring now, and times have changed.
"Young nudists might be far more interested in naked parties, trips to a nude beach, or nude hiking than any landed club."
Probably true. But here's the thing: are people at naked parties interested in other forms of naturism - that don't also involve getting drunk or stoned? Nude beaches in the U.S. in general are mostly on the coasts - not convenient at all. Naked hiking and camping? Sure, but not so much in "urban centers". Naturism, at least in my opinion, is best as a social activity with others. And where is any better place to be certain of meeting other naturists besides landed and non-landed clubs?
Sure, being naked in one's own home is great. Maybe that's where 90% or more of people who enjoy nonsexual nudity spend all their naked time. But humans are social creatures and few live in the modern equivalent of caves. So what if most people at naturist clubs are older? If they have some younger friends or relatives who're naked at home or with a few friends on hiking or camping trips, the oldies might introduce you to them. What's the downside of talking with older naturists? Would they be less accepting of nudity than younger people?
"Is it a bad idea to invite others to at least give it a try?"
Not at all. That's not what evangelists do. Evangelists don't take "no thanks" as an answer. It is their God-given duty to convert people. And if you don't convert, you are a heathen. (I grew up surrounded by Christian evangelicals.)
If you try too hard to push nudism onto a textile, you will come off as creepy. The most one should ever do is say, "This is what we are about and you are welcome to join." Drop it if the answer is no thanks. Only follow up if there is curiosity.
"People shouldn't have to move hundreds or thousands of miles to find a "nude-tolerant" place."
That is a nice ideal and you could say the same thing of being gay or a nonChristian religion. If you are any of those in a place hostile to your lifestyle, you have three choices. Be public and risk rejection and suspicion, live in a closet, (what most people do) or move to where you are more accepted. America is not a tolerant place for nonconforming people.
When I was young, I could move from rural and conservative Michigan to urban and liberal California without a second thought. As an adult I am tied down to where I live by economic reality. I managed to land in the most conservative location in all of LA County. I must cope how I can.
Let me give you a personal example. I used to have a license plate that read, I NUDIST. Then I learned it was impacting my daughter because some conservative parents didn't let their kids come visit nor let her visit them. I got rid of the plate because it was negatively affecting her. Over time everyone forgot about it, but lesson learned. It isn't just abut me.
She also caught a ration of shit because she's Jewish but at least there is a population of Jews out here to socialize with.
I guarantee I would never have been allowed to work as a substitute teacher (decades later) if my nudism had been general knowledge. It only takes one person to freak out and there would be scandal. For al my activity, I had to live with one foot still in a closet.
This is why many parents don't tell their children. Or if they do, they don't take them to nudist activities. We all once went to Gaviota Beach when it was still a popular nude beach and the people there actively discouraged us from staying because of my children.
I am fortunate that the conservative enclave I live in is on the edge of a sea of liberality. When I lived in Michigan, I didn't have that luxury.
"are people at naked parties interested in other forms of naturism"
It doesn't matter. They're naked, they're social. It is up to the organizers/faculty advisor to make sure everyone knows that misbehavior is unacceptable.
Going back to my own days in Au Naturel at CSUN, it worked. We went to Elysium. We went to the beach - nudity was still viable nearby. We went to private residences. We'd reserve the University pool, just like any other club. Pot was illegal at the time and we didn't serve booze. There was loud music and as in ANY college group, people were flirting and playing the dating/mating game.
When we went to Elysium, we didn't go to meet other naturists. We stuck together in our own group. Birds of a feather.
If a college isn't near a beach, you figure out something different. Not every college is a good prospect, so you go where the prospects are good.
"So what if most people at naturist clubs are older?"
Young people want to be with young people. Older people do not think like younger people. That's why "Okay boomer." has become such a popular meme. There has never NOT been a generation gap.
It matters if you are bringing in young visitors one or few at a time or in larger groups. A young person who comes in and sees mostly people old enough to be their parents or grandparents will probably decide that there is nothing there for them. A large enough young group will segregate into their own subculture. If there are already a good proportion of young people present they will feel more comfortable because they are with someone who is like them. It promises that things will happen that they will enjoy.
You get the same effect if a black couple comes to an all white club or a gay person comes to an all straight club. Nobody want to stick out.
It isn't a universal problem. Last time I was at Olive Dell, (Naked Beer Mile) there were a lot of young people, mainly because the manager actively courts them. I think naked beer runs are a good marketing idea to aim at younger folks. Live performances of popular music would be another.
I have been to many clubs where the population distribution doesn't look so good for the future of nudism.
"If you try too hard to push nudism onto a textile, you will come off as creepy. The most one should ever do is say, "This is what we are about and you are welcome to join." Drop it if the answer is no thanks. Only follow up if there is curiosity."
Mostly agree. Inviting someone to a naturist place is very different from insisting or pestering them. The issue is with the borderline cases. Suppose you discuss naturism with someone and they demure but don't ridicule the idea. Should you never mention it again? It's a judgment call and depends on how flexible the other is. Forget about people who're not open-minded. Perhaps only 1 in 10 tries it with you, especially if you explain they usually don't have to get naked. That's better than none. If we never try, the number will be 0. The ever-shrinking number of naturists indicates that's what happens.
I'm reading a book now about how people change their minds. I'll write more about it once I have the time to finish it. But the basic idea is that people generally don't change their minds dramatically (such as leaving a religious cult) for rational reasons. Instead, some experience or life event catalyzes the change. Heeding someone's advice to experience social nudity could be such a factor.
"America is not a tolerant place for nonconforming people."
How true! But that's probably the case with at least 95% of modern human societies. Yet there are more than a few countries with some congenial environments - especially in large countries like the U.S. Economic realities certainly can be a problem - but often less so for young people. (Left home for better job opportunities away from the family, looking for new experiences, no children yet.) So young people especially can relocate to places relatively tolerant of naturism. If only we could somehow persuade young people to become interested in naturism, most would have little trouble finding a non-hostile place to enjoy it.
"A large enough young group will segregate into their own subculture. If there are already a good proportion of young people present they will feel more comfortable because they are with someone who is like them. It promises that things will happen that they will enjoy."
Many naturist activities are suitable for young people - hiking, camping, canoeing and kayaking, surfing, etc. Indoor activities like yoga also appeal to young people. The problem is finding others to participate in such things clothesfree. I still think naturist clubs and resorts are the natural and obvious places to find others who enjoy naturist activities. But some effort by these clubs and resorts is required. They could, for example, plan and schedule events specifically for young people to meet others who enjoy such activities. Unfortunately, too few places seem interested in making the effort.
Beer runs? I don't know. I've always hated alcoholic beverages myself, but that's just me. I know some clubs like Olive Dell have running events. That can appeal to young people (with or without the booze), but it should be done as a serious competitive event - something that offers a chance to show a little prowess. Other sporting things that involve actual athletic challenges - tennis tournaments, swim meets, etc. COULD attract young athletic people. But maybe most clubs these days don't have the proper facilities for such things.
In the early days of naturism, "physical culture" seemed to play an important part of the naturist experience - vigorous outdoor exercise. That's something that actually goes back to the days of ancient Greece - and probably much earlier. Athletes usually did their thing naked—nothing to inhibit loss of excess body heat. Gymnasiums are called that because "gymnos" was (and I think still is) the Greek word for "naked". Early naturists in the 20th century used the term "gymnosophy" for their beliefs. Surely there must be a way to interest active young people through that connection.
Whatever happened to being naked for physical activity?
"But some effort by these clubs and resorts is required."
Absolutely! I have to hold up Olive Dell as a good example of it. Outreach to the gay community. Outreach to young people. Music and dancing and karaoke. Full time bar, facilities for parents with young children. It still skews to a middle aged crowd but it doesn't feel like an old folks home.
"They could, for example, plan and schedule events specifically for young people to meet others who enjoy such activities. Unfortunately, too few places seem interested in making the effort."
Yup. My complaint is that most clubs don't. I ask myself why and I reach the conclusion that it is not what the existing clientele wants. I ask myself why again and I conclude they are too old for it to be of interest and they don't want bunch of young people coming in and changing their sedate lifestyle. Just like senior communities for textiles. Catering to the existing crowd rather than working to expand.
"But maybe most clubs these days don't have the proper facilities for such things."
Some have enough land for minimal hiking or back against public land where it could be accepted. Most can't do a full 5K because of too little land - unless you run around a tight circle a lot. Swimming races require the right style of pool. Most clubs at least have a pickleball court.
"Whatever happened to being naked for physical activity?"
Physical activity in general has died. 😯 Epidemic of obesity and people glued to digital media.
Around the same period, Mensa was really active and I was in a Young Mensa SIG who visited Elysium once a month. We didn't bother with the nudist label, we just did it.
It's really hard to have children under 18 involved because of how that can be weaponized against you as a parent. Even with both parents involved, it can be weaponized, let alone a situation where one parent uses it against another in a divorce scenario.
And even if it doesn't get weaponized against you, your children will be given a hard time if it gets out. Other parents telling their kids they can't visit, teasing at school, that sort of thing. It is not all sweetness and light.
I remember one time at Deep Creek, one of the women participants mentioned there was a court ruling that prohibited her from allowing her children to attend a nudist event or she'd lose custody to her husband. The %$#@! was using it against her in the custody fight.
Yes. Not uncommon. We need to be more understanding of why people do not engage their children because of things like this. I find there's a lot of well-intentioned persuasion that occurs that doesn't have the full picture. Regardless, there are still lots of exciting ways to think about new paths of entry for young people. Sometimes, you don't want your parent's beer, you want your own! You want to mark the world for yourself and there are wonderful ways to do this with naturism. We need to find the natural leaders in the youth and help them.
Bingo! I'd like to see a professional group of young people touring campuses and visiting events with a lot of young people attending. Do some real market research and figure out the best approach. Obviously, nobody in the N/N community currently in a decision making position has a clue how to do it correctly.
In fact, there may be nobody capable of making a decision. Committees are terrible leaders.
If you can't get enough young people, don't substitute over-30s. Hire some starving actors.
A great example of how screwed up the law is! While there is no law that bans children from attending nudist clubs in Maryland, you have this ridiculous contradictory decision from the court! Go figure!
Dear Fred Heiser, I hope You take a moment to ST/ROLL around with Us during the 2024 #FREErangeSFnudistEXPERIENCE season in San Francisco USA ( Watch @NudeActivism youtube ). Our #NudistWelcomingMerchants are as sign that #SocialPublicNudism is not in decline, despite the handwringing of many Nudists; Economics drive change far more often than whining & ProTests. As @NakedDan attests, the historic annual #Bare2Breakers/#Bay2Breakers which attracts thousands of folks, including families/parents with young children, demonstrates that “Society” has few in any real credible concerns with the display of Human Anatomy or The Human Body in its essential form. The Legions of fans of inter/national WNBR events are also a marvelous tribute to Our INALIENABLE #ClothesFREE Liberty & Codified #1stAmendment Right to defy ancient & modern codes & rulers&rules armed&aimed at shaming deamonizing & criminalizing The Human Body & Our God-Blessed Species-Essential ProCreative, LifeGiving, LifeNurturing, LoveMaking & Joy Organs.
Some interesting points, Fred, and yes- I do live in a place where nudity is tolerated or even embraced far more than in America. But while I'm one of those who often suggest that many naturists' fear of causing offence is a perceived fear rather than one that is borne out of actual experience, I'm also mindful of the fact that some have careers and other factors to consider. I suspect, however, that they would be valid concerns to a much greater proportion of naturists in America than to those here in New Zealand.
Another point you raised is that young nudists might be far more interested in naked parties, trips to a nude beach or nude hiking than any landed club. I would go even further than that by saying that young people are not even interested in the labels "naturist" or "nudist". A week ago I returned from six days at Kiwiburn - New Zealand's regional Burning Man festival. On the Saturday night over 1,000 people ran and danced naked around the dying embers of the effigy - mostly young folks who never consider themselves as naturists. Skinny-dipping in New Zealand has always been acceptable at beaches and rivers and there would be few folks here who have never done that.
So, yes, I agree that landed clubs will likely fade away over time. New Zealand is a Common Law country, and it is becoming very rare now for anyone to be arrested for simply being naked in an appropriate public place, due to ongoing court precedents being set. There is becoming less need for landed clubs to exist - especially for younger folks.
For these reasons I'm less inclined these days to promote naturism as a philosophy or even to wear the label. Rather, I'm more than happy to advocate for nudity to become more and more acceptable in society as just another dress code for appropriate activities. You don't need a label for that, any more than you need a label for wearing a T-shirt.
It could be that the nudist label needs to be discarded. I consider myself a nudie but I don't treat it as my identity, any more than if I thought of myself as a foodie or a roadie.
I would suggest that an openly naturist person in parts of Wisconsin has more to fear then one in LA who, in turn, has far more to fear than one in new Zealand. Even in the community where I live in Southern California, if someone was a teacher and it got out they were an active nudist, would lose their job in a heartbeat.
Kind of case in point of exactly what I’ve been thinking this summer Rok.
Over the years I’ve been hot and cold over the naturism/nudism movement but have never lost my appetite for nude recreation.
As I’ve commented elsewhere, the NN narrative hasn’t really changed over the last 15++ years. Nor has it seemed to have visibly moved the needle in terms of acceptance and adoption.
I reckon what the NN crowd probably don’t get is a lot people don’t mind nudity, but don’t, nor want to identify as a NN for all sorts of reasons.
I myself shy away from that tag more often than not because it always felt like a badly tailored wrap that never really fit me right.
Maybe what younger people can relate to far more readily is the concept of body liberation. This concept is something they can probably shape and own the way they want to own it. You only need look at gender identity to see how quickly a grass roots concept can catch on and rapidly become mainstream. To the point corporations feel obligated to recognise and support it.
Part of the problem is something Fred has eluded to. You look at the NN demographic and it’s dominated by a lot of older people. Quite often grumbling about how marginalised NN is.
Contrast that to what’s happening in other circles and the philosophies and ideas might not suit that well with the NN crowd, but arguably, has a much greater ground swell that can relate and join in on terms they’re comfortable with.
Here's the problem. There is no "movement."
I like the idea of body liberation. Young people have a completely different outlook on life. They are all about adventure, risk taking, and new experiences. If you could make social nudity seem "edgy" or rebellious, you'd have better luck in attracting them.
If you want to reach out to young people, you have to use young people in the outreach. When I was young, we had a saying, "Don't trust anyone over thirty." It is still useful in understanding young people. Today it can be roughly translated into, "Okay boomer." but it is being extended to millennials as they cruise through middle age.
Listening to this, I think I heard exactly the same things back in the '60s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-PZfgMEr78
Very well-written. It's true that we'll always be outliers in general society and sad to see so many clubs going going textile. To survive, the clubs that are left might incorporate like Glen Eden did. I forget which others have done the same, if there were any others.. All we can do is watch out for each other and keep networking, holding events at homes where people are able to host- things like that. I too hope younger people become interested and find out what a beautiful lifestyle Nudism/Naturism is.
What year did you graduate from CSUN? Alumnus 1964.
Article brought good info. My resort home I wish would make a planned push for 20-40 y/o membership.
I didn't. I had an AA when I came to California. I just took a few courses over a couple of years right around 1980. My BA is from Cal State Dominguez Hills, which I didn't manage until 1996.
Well said
Thanks for the great article!
Very interesting article. What you have said is really compelling to think. As you have said rightly, travel clubs & home nudism can be a reality of the future. Is there any alternative? This is the thought which occupies mind after going through the article.
Because of the low density of the nudist population, I see it as inevitable.
The nature of at-home nudism is changing. The internet is replacing social clubs in general, not just nudist clubs. People are cocooning and hanging out online rather than going out for activities. Social media has somewhat displaced socializing in person.
At-home nudism overlaps with travel club nudism. At one point you might have a few friends over for a clothing optional evening. There's not much difference between that and a travel club having a meet and greet at your house, except that group events have more more planning and less spontaneity.
BTW, I consider solo freehiking to be an offshoot of at-home nudism. I could classify it separately but I see no point.
Likewise, if I go for a nude hike solo or with a friend, there's not a lot of difference between that and going on a nude hike with a travel club. The larger group has more resources and is probably seen as less threatening in an encounter with textiles. OTOH, there is organizational overhead and a lack of spontaneity with a group.
Travel club nudism does events. You rent a venue for nude bowling or swimming or whatever. They can be an introduction to club nudism (assuming there's one in your area) by having an event there. You can have meet-and-greets at member's homes. (Not that many are willing these days.) You can organize a hike or a trip to the beach as a group. You can join in on other events, like the WNBR or the Bare to Breakers. This way you meet people's need for IRL social contact and experiences without the cost of a multi-million dollar facility.
The late and lamented "Nude Comedy LA" is an example of an event that was primarily attended by members of SoCal Naturists, a travel club. (I hope they find a nude friendly buyer.) They also organize hikes, beach trips, bowling nights, spa days, and the like. Most of the attendance for the LA WNBR comes from them. In addition, there are several smaller travel clubs in San Diego, Orange County, and a couple in Los Angeles that usually share events.
The Greater Los Angeles area doesn't seem to be able to support landed clubs. Even properties in the middle of nowhere are worth several million dollars. I see club after club go on the market to be sold for textile purposes.
Very Well Said...
Continuation...
"If a blog readership is already nudist or nudist-friendly, then it is impossible to promote nudism there."
Obviously, there are no minds to change among naturist blog readers as far as naturism itself is concerned. Don't bother carrying coals to Newcastle. But there's one BIG exception - persuading readers to be open about naturism and promote it to open-minded friends and relatives.
What we write can suggest and encourage new ways to enjoy naturism. Even more important than that is encouraging home naturists to come out of their caves, because social nudity is more enjoyable the more widely it is understood and participated in by others. I mean, how many naturists will you meet hiking alone in the desert? "The cave's (or trail's) a fine and private place, but none, I think, do there embrace" - to slightly misquote Andrew Marvell.
Regarding encountering others while hiking naked, "Nobody complains, and I get positive comments from textiles." Exactly. Naturists shouldn't be so afraid of what others might think of them. Depending on individual circumstances, negative reactions are probably much less likely than generally feared. Sure, there are still plenty of people who also hate LGBTQ+ people. Most of them do so for "religious" reasons, but hatred isn't supposed to be a religious virtue. "Noli illegitimi carborundum" should be taken to heart by naturists.
"I think landed clubs are only going to become less common. The cost of real estate prevents new ones from forming."
The cost of real estate isn't the real problem. In fact, land is more expensive on average in England than in the U.S., because the average population density is much higher in England. Yet naturism is much more popular in England than in the U.S. That's due, first, to the effectiveness of the British Naturism organization at promoting naturism as compared to U.S. organizations. And, second, the higher population density in England makes visiting naturist places much easier and cheaper. Real estate costs have little, if anything, to do with the difference.
The U.S. has far more open space - hence cheaper land - but that's a problem, since people on average have to travel much farther to visit naturist clubs and resorts. Yet if most naturists were in "urban centers", then the expensiveness of land really is a problem for landed clubs.
The real problem, however, is TOO FEW naturists. Current naturists can't do anything about the cost of real estate. But they certainly can - if they choose to - do much more to promote naturism.
"Travel clubs and at-home nudism are the future."
Home naturism overly limits the social aspect. And most travel clubs seem to be doing as poorly these days as the landed ones, as far as I can tell. The one I belong to is mostly old people - who won't be around much longer. And it has only half a dozen events per year, at most. So why would a young person join or see value in starting one - unless the number of younger naturists began increasing at a good rate? Besides, where is a "travel club" going to travel? Where can they go in "urban centers" - except for the homes of other naturists, who they'll have difficulty finding?
"Naturists shouldn't be so afraid of what others might think of them."
Yes and no. Freehiking has a significant chance of a negative encounter leading to a police presence waiting for you at the trailhead - even if nudity is perfectly legal. Even if I am not arrested, a hostile encounter with the police would be traumatic.
https://socalnaturist.org/campfire/nudehiker.html
I work to avoid such encounters. I hike mindfully so that I don't get surprised. I do not freehike if there is another car at the trailhead. I do not hike on trails that see much traffic. I avoid weekends. My trails are remote and not easily accessed, usually in a wilderness area. (The people deep in the back country are a different breed from the common day hiker.) Maybe once a year I encounter an unexpected hiker on the trail. It usually goes okay though sometimes the other party will hurry by with their eyes averted despite me using my hat as a coverup.
I am fortunate to live in a state where nudity is not illegal except for a few local ordinances -though an unlucky encounter with the wrong person could still land me in the back of a police cruiser. There are a small number of locations on public land (beaches and hot springs) where nudity is common and accepted. It is just a long trip to get to them.
There used to be a nude theater troupe about 40 minutes from home where I took acting lessons and sometimes acted in shows. It is up for sale but there are no takers. The owner said he was driven out of the nude theater business by "cyber bullies" who attacked his main livelihood.
I am retired, so I have no job to risk. I live close to wilderness. It is 3 hours by freeway to the nearest nude resort - though it has been listed on the market. My children are long since grown and gone, so that risk is gone. The WNBR is still safe in LA. So is the Bare to Breakers in SF. I consider the situation in Wisconsin and count my blessings.
I'll continue this later but we've just been informed we're in an "immediate" flash flood warning zone, so I need to check things out.
I guess it depends on the context. If the situation is such that a person could cause a naturist physical, social, legal, reputational, or other sorts of harm, then prudence is called for. But if someone simply expresses contempt or disgust for a naturist's nudity - perhaps without actually seeing it - that's another matter. If the person is of some importance in one's life, then try to reason with him/her. Otherwise, just ignore the stupid opinion.
"'Noli illegitimi' carborundum" should be taken to heart by naturists.
I would generally agree with that.
In the states, there's a nasty tendency not to stop at expressing disgust and moving on. There seems an urge to carry it beyond that. America was never a tolerant utopia to begin with but intolerance seems to be growing again. Intolerance of nudity is on the rise along with all the other intolerances. I refer you to the mess in Wisconsin and suggest the same thing could happen in a majority of states in the Union.
I can be bolder online than in person. That's because if you don't like a blog, you just don't read it. I always give fair warning. It is the functional equivalent of a nude hiking groups sending a clothed hiker up ahead to warn any oncoming hikers. Can't do that in real life if you're solo.
WRT the WNBR in LA, the police has told us to keep minors out of it. There's a particular subculture they don't want up in arms. Online I saw a guy posting videos of a young girl viewing the ride and trying to raise the same kind of ruckus that was raised in Wisconsin. (Didn't work here because Sacramento is full of progressive Democrats.) We live in the age of the heckler's veto.
In the early days of U.S. naturism (1930), there was a lot of opposition. That was also true in countries like England and France, which now generally accept naturism and public nudity within certain limits. In the U.S. police interfered with nudists even in private gymnasiums - in New York City, in fact.
But even in the U.S. things eventually got better in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. More recently, unfortunately, the situation is going downhill, with all the right-wing culture warriors throwing tantrums about almost anything they can imagine to hate. This, of course, is aided and abetted by groups with political agendas.
Why, for instance, is there now so much bitter hatred of trans people? It's because politicians get more contributions and support from angry people. Remember the Scopes trial of 1925? The issue there was the teaching of evolution in schools. The prosecutor in that case was the washed-up politician, William Jennings Bryan. Fortunately, he lost the case. The problems in New York for naturists were the work of another washed-up politician, Al Smith - who, like Bryan, had previously run for President. Is this beginning to sound familiar?
Southern California had similar problems in that period, with the earliest naturist clubs persecuted by DAs and police - even as late as the 1970s in the case of Ed Lange's Elysium.
And, lo and behold, what do we have today? Laws in right-wing states against teaching about "critical race theory" or LGBTQ+ people. Although religious principles may be the pretext, the real purpose is mostly political, simply weaponizing the ease with which so many people can be duped. This is what's really going on in Wisconsin. That directly impacts naturists, but at least we're such a small and closeted cohort that we're not (yet) the main targets. What can I say? Sometimes human nature really sucks.
"It's because politicians get more contributions and support from angry people."
Hit the nail right on the head!
I was there for Elysium. 'Young Mensa' and 'Au Naturel' from Cal. State Northridge visited regularly. I got free admission in exchange for washing the dog, Murph. He was always a mass of mats and burrs.
I remember Elysium's battles with LA County Supervisor Mike Antonavich. He was in a district that had to be wildly gerrymandered to get a single conservative elected. (They didn't do it to get a conservative elected. They did it to keep their own districts completely liberal.) He stayed in that office most of his life.
Most of the complaints were neighbors unhappy about heavy traffic on a narrow one-lane road. Antonavich was trying to use that to either bankrupt or shut the place down by denying their use permit. The roads really were extremely difficult to use on weekends and evenings. Ed Lange put a lot of money into improving them. Antonavich failed and Ed Lange won.
The actual cause of Elysium's demise was Ed Lange's demise. (1995) His daughters had no interest in nudism and sold the property. (2000) That's the fate of a lot of California clubs.
Members tried reopening it in Malibu but the membership had declined and it failed. Now it lives on as the Southern California Naturists Association, a travel club.
Naturists/Nudists on this thread seem to have smaller cojones than AA/Negro Civil Rights era Heroes of just a few decades ago. My good acquaintance with the most recent fallen Hero, the late Rep Rev John Lewis, was famously arrested in ProTest for FREEDOM nearly Fifty ( 50 ) times, if not more; & he cheerily spoke of those events as Badges of COURAGE taking the #USgovt to talk on its myriad hypocrisies as many bygone trailblazers have done before Him.
“Every actual state is corrupt. GOOD MEN MUST NOT OBEY laws too well.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson
- mARTy
https://freemannoone.substack.com/p/living-his-beliefs?utm_campaign=email-post&r=3ixze9&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
It is too easy to be satisfied with their club membership. It is too easy to live in a closet for most people to take even the slightest risk.
There could be no closet for the black person. You couldn't be black every other weekend behind closed gates with complete confidentiality. It was fight or stay oppressed forever.
I agree with Fred on some points, but not all. Promoting naturism is very important. It's not time wasted. The more open-minded people learn about naturism the better for all of us. Promoting naturism provides an opportunity to meet additional like-minded friends. And it remains true that there's strength in numbers.
"In the past, nudist parents often did not raise nudist — or even nude-tolerant — children. That’s still evident today."
I think it's just the opposite. From the naturist history I've read, U.S. families went together to naturist places MUCH more often than today. And for sure, fathers and male children had little problem being naked at YMCA swimming pools and the like. (But I don't know whether that was similar on the female side.) Now most adult males seem fearful even about being naked with their peers. I can't disagree that the U.S. has some pretty bad hang-ups these days. It's a really messed-up country. "Land of the free" - but the home of the easily terrified.
"The people one needs to promote nudism to aren't nudists."
Well, yeah. What needs to be promoted to naturists is making an effort to help non-naturists get the message.
"I meet many nudists who keep their nudism a secret from their kids, never mind including them in the fun. Or conveniently wait until the kids have left home to get involved."
That may be too often true, but it certainly leaves kids with unhealthy ideas about nudity. Kids should learn about human bodies of both sexes before their teen years. (Many do anyhow, but not in the best way.) Naturist parents have a real advantage in this respect. Other countries, especially in Europe, are more sensible about this. U.S. Naturists should follow that example. Of course, if one's spouse is opposed to naturism, then there is a very serious problem.
A primary tenet of naturism is that a body's appearance isn't an important matter, at least as long as it's in good health. When I was young, kids saw naked bodies of the same sex regularly. It's NOT healthy that doesn't seem to happen now. For some unclear reason, nudity has become more controversial in the U.S. now than in the past. U.S. society in many ways has become very sick in recent years. The ideas of tolerance and diversity are faring rather poorly. But perhaps that's just tribalism and human nature.
"For a long time, young people really weren't welcomed in nudism because resorts were (and some still are) dominated by people hostile to "youth" culture, i.e. free love and smoking dope, loud parties and death metal music, and all that."
Is that really "youth culture" today? Seems more true of the 1970-80 period. Young people were much more prevalent at naturist places back then - and were also naked on college campuses (personal observation) and clothing-optional beaches. Didn't seem to make them unwelcome at resorts. And for that matter, there's still a large cohort of adults of all ages who indulge in the "party culture".
"Consider the population/age distribution of a club. If almost all of the people are middle-aged or older, you won’t attract a lot of young people."
Absolutely true. And very sad. But, you know, with low-paying jobs, high rents, and large college debt loads (for some), too many young people these days can afford only basic necessities, if that much. Especially once they start having their own kids. Middle age or older folks tend to have free time, plenty of savings, and they own most of the housing. Too few young people can afford visits to naturist resorts or time spent in non-landed club activities. And if they can afford it, there aren't many naturists their own age.
"And there are few attempts at public persuasion."
Very true. But, um, doesn't that mean individual naturists themselves are at fault?
"People who promote "the only enemy is your own fear" line of thinking don't get what it is like to live in a place where being a social nudist can cost you your job, get your kids ridiculed, and put you at risk of getting a visit from the local children's welfare investigators."
Yes, that is the excuse most naturists seem to use for staying in the closet. But where's the data behind it? Are there any statistics at all for how many people lost a job for being "out" as a naturist? Or suffer from the ridicule of others? There might be a concern for teachers and others who work with children. But factory workers? People in skilled technical jobs? Staff at retail stores? Independent people who're plumbers, electricians, etc.?
And how is it that Florida - one of the most right-wing states in the nation - has the largest number of naturist clubs and resorts - as well as an active young naturist group? It's also the home base of AANR. Texas - equally as far right - also has lots of clubs and resorts. And, incidentally, Sunsport Gardens in Loxahatchee, FL especially welcomes families.
"The best way to promote nudism is to be a good person who just happens to be a nudist and neither hide the fact nor be evangelical about it."
True - as far as it goes. But is it "evangelical" to be open with others about naturism and explain what's good about it? Is it a bad idea to invite others to at least give it a try?
"My first suggestion is to be somewhere that is at least moderately nude-tolerant. By concentrating in a few urban centers, gay people created enclaves where they were safer. Nudists need to do the same."
People shouldn't have to move hundreds or thousands of miles to find a "nude-tolerant" place. Look at Florida, for example. Concentrating in urban centers isn't all that great either. For one thing, they're more expensive. If young people have trouble making ends meet, urban centers aren't a great choice.
"The people one needs to promote nudism to aren't nudists. It is people NOT into nudism who might be curious about it."
Yeah, and also don't bother promoting religion to the Pope.
"the best possible place for organized outreach would be college campuses."
That may well be the best choice. Where else can some many young adults be found in one place? And probably the highest percentage of open-minded people, too. But figuring out how to reach college students is the tricky part. What specific ways can you suggest to do that? Is AANR about to send missionaries to campuses for that purpose?
"When I was a student at Cal State, Northridge, there was a nudist club on campus"
Hell, at Stanford in the 1970s there was a small lake right on campus behind one of the big dorms where sometimes half the students there were naked. Nudity wasn't a problem if one preferred it. And it was about 50-50 male/female. But the lake usually dries up in the spring now, and times have changed.
"Young nudists might be far more interested in naked parties, trips to a nude beach, or nude hiking than any landed club."
Probably true. But here's the thing: are people at naked parties interested in other forms of naturism - that don't also involve getting drunk or stoned? Nude beaches in the U.S. in general are mostly on the coasts - not convenient at all. Naked hiking and camping? Sure, but not so much in "urban centers". Naturism, at least in my opinion, is best as a social activity with others. And where is any better place to be certain of meeting other naturists besides landed and non-landed clubs?
Sure, being naked in one's own home is great. Maybe that's where 90% or more of people who enjoy nonsexual nudity spend all their naked time. But humans are social creatures and few live in the modern equivalent of caves. So what if most people at naturist clubs are older? If they have some younger friends or relatives who're naked at home or with a few friends on hiking or camping trips, the oldies might introduce you to them. What's the downside of talking with older naturists? Would they be less accepting of nudity than younger people?
"Is it a bad idea to invite others to at least give it a try?"
Not at all. That's not what evangelists do. Evangelists don't take "no thanks" as an answer. It is their God-given duty to convert people. And if you don't convert, you are a heathen. (I grew up surrounded by Christian evangelicals.)
If you try too hard to push nudism onto a textile, you will come off as creepy. The most one should ever do is say, "This is what we are about and you are welcome to join." Drop it if the answer is no thanks. Only follow up if there is curiosity.
"People shouldn't have to move hundreds or thousands of miles to find a "nude-tolerant" place."
That is a nice ideal and you could say the same thing of being gay or a nonChristian religion. If you are any of those in a place hostile to your lifestyle, you have three choices. Be public and risk rejection and suspicion, live in a closet, (what most people do) or move to where you are more accepted. America is not a tolerant place for nonconforming people.
When I was young, I could move from rural and conservative Michigan to urban and liberal California without a second thought. As an adult I am tied down to where I live by economic reality. I managed to land in the most conservative location in all of LA County. I must cope how I can.
Let me give you a personal example. I used to have a license plate that read, I NUDIST. Then I learned it was impacting my daughter because some conservative parents didn't let their kids come visit nor let her visit them. I got rid of the plate because it was negatively affecting her. Over time everyone forgot about it, but lesson learned. It isn't just abut me.
She also caught a ration of shit because she's Jewish but at least there is a population of Jews out here to socialize with.
I guarantee I would never have been allowed to work as a substitute teacher (decades later) if my nudism had been general knowledge. It only takes one person to freak out and there would be scandal. For al my activity, I had to live with one foot still in a closet.
This is why many parents don't tell their children. Or if they do, they don't take them to nudist activities. We all once went to Gaviota Beach when it was still a popular nude beach and the people there actively discouraged us from staying because of my children.
I am fortunate that the conservative enclave I live in is on the edge of a sea of liberality. When I lived in Michigan, I didn't have that luxury.
"are people at naked parties interested in other forms of naturism"
It doesn't matter. They're naked, they're social. It is up to the organizers/faculty advisor to make sure everyone knows that misbehavior is unacceptable.
Going back to my own days in Au Naturel at CSUN, it worked. We went to Elysium. We went to the beach - nudity was still viable nearby. We went to private residences. We'd reserve the University pool, just like any other club. Pot was illegal at the time and we didn't serve booze. There was loud music and as in ANY college group, people were flirting and playing the dating/mating game.
When we went to Elysium, we didn't go to meet other naturists. We stuck together in our own group. Birds of a feather.
If a college isn't near a beach, you figure out something different. Not every college is a good prospect, so you go where the prospects are good.
"So what if most people at naturist clubs are older?"
Young people want to be with young people. Older people do not think like younger people. That's why "Okay boomer." has become such a popular meme. There has never NOT been a generation gap.
It matters if you are bringing in young visitors one or few at a time or in larger groups. A young person who comes in and sees mostly people old enough to be their parents or grandparents will probably decide that there is nothing there for them. A large enough young group will segregate into their own subculture. If there are already a good proportion of young people present they will feel more comfortable because they are with someone who is like them. It promises that things will happen that they will enjoy.
You get the same effect if a black couple comes to an all white club or a gay person comes to an all straight club. Nobody want to stick out.
It isn't a universal problem. Last time I was at Olive Dell, (Naked Beer Mile) there were a lot of young people, mainly because the manager actively courts them. I think naked beer runs are a good marketing idea to aim at younger folks. Live performances of popular music would be another.
I have been to many clubs where the population distribution doesn't look so good for the future of nudism.
"If you try too hard to push nudism onto a textile, you will come off as creepy. The most one should ever do is say, "This is what we are about and you are welcome to join." Drop it if the answer is no thanks. Only follow up if there is curiosity."
Mostly agree. Inviting someone to a naturist place is very different from insisting or pestering them. The issue is with the borderline cases. Suppose you discuss naturism with someone and they demure but don't ridicule the idea. Should you never mention it again? It's a judgment call and depends on how flexible the other is. Forget about people who're not open-minded. Perhaps only 1 in 10 tries it with you, especially if you explain they usually don't have to get naked. That's better than none. If we never try, the number will be 0. The ever-shrinking number of naturists indicates that's what happens.
Just ask Google or some other AI chatbot how many others the average adult knows. It's probably more than 500. (https://www.wsj.com/us-news/you-probably-know-611-people-heres-how-we-know-88dd27d9). So there are plenty of opportunities.
I'm reading a book now about how people change their minds. I'll write more about it once I have the time to finish it. But the basic idea is that people generally don't change their minds dramatically (such as leaving a religious cult) for rational reasons. Instead, some experience or life event catalyzes the change. Heeding someone's advice to experience social nudity could be such a factor.
"America is not a tolerant place for nonconforming people."
How true! But that's probably the case with at least 95% of modern human societies. Yet there are more than a few countries with some congenial environments - especially in large countries like the U.S. Economic realities certainly can be a problem - but often less so for young people. (Left home for better job opportunities away from the family, looking for new experiences, no children yet.) So young people especially can relocate to places relatively tolerant of naturism. If only we could somehow persuade young people to become interested in naturism, most would have little trouble finding a non-hostile place to enjoy it.
"A large enough young group will segregate into their own subculture. If there are already a good proportion of young people present they will feel more comfortable because they are with someone who is like them. It promises that things will happen that they will enjoy."
Many naturist activities are suitable for young people - hiking, camping, canoeing and kayaking, surfing, etc. Indoor activities like yoga also appeal to young people. The problem is finding others to participate in such things clothesfree. I still think naturist clubs and resorts are the natural and obvious places to find others who enjoy naturist activities. But some effort by these clubs and resorts is required. They could, for example, plan and schedule events specifically for young people to meet others who enjoy such activities. Unfortunately, too few places seem interested in making the effort.
Beer runs? I don't know. I've always hated alcoholic beverages myself, but that's just me. I know some clubs like Olive Dell have running events. That can appeal to young people (with or without the booze), but it should be done as a serious competitive event - something that offers a chance to show a little prowess. Other sporting things that involve actual athletic challenges - tennis tournaments, swim meets, etc. COULD attract young athletic people. But maybe most clubs these days don't have the proper facilities for such things.
In the early days of naturism, "physical culture" seemed to play an important part of the naturist experience - vigorous outdoor exercise. That's something that actually goes back to the days of ancient Greece - and probably much earlier. Athletes usually did their thing naked—nothing to inhibit loss of excess body heat. Gymnasiums are called that because "gymnos" was (and I think still is) the Greek word for "naked". Early naturists in the 20th century used the term "gymnosophy" for their beliefs. Surely there must be a way to interest active young people through that connection.
Whatever happened to being naked for physical activity?
"But some effort by these clubs and resorts is required."
Absolutely! I have to hold up Olive Dell as a good example of it. Outreach to the gay community. Outreach to young people. Music and dancing and karaoke. Full time bar, facilities for parents with young children. It still skews to a middle aged crowd but it doesn't feel like an old folks home.
"They could, for example, plan and schedule events specifically for young people to meet others who enjoy such activities. Unfortunately, too few places seem interested in making the effort."
Yup. My complaint is that most clubs don't. I ask myself why and I reach the conclusion that it is not what the existing clientele wants. I ask myself why again and I conclude they are too old for it to be of interest and they don't want bunch of young people coming in and changing their sedate lifestyle. Just like senior communities for textiles. Catering to the existing crowd rather than working to expand.
"But maybe most clubs these days don't have the proper facilities for such things."
Some have enough land for minimal hiking or back against public land where it could be accepted. Most can't do a full 5K because of too little land - unless you run around a tight circle a lot. Swimming races require the right style of pool. Most clubs at least have a pickleball court.
"Whatever happened to being naked for physical activity?"
Physical activity in general has died. 😯 Epidemic of obesity and people glued to digital media.
I was a member of Au Naturel for awhile. We used to meet up at Elysium quite a bit as I remember. I was also a member there, then Glen Eden.
Good! That means I didn't imagine it.
Around the same period, Mensa was really active and I was in a Young Mensa SIG who visited Elysium once a month. We didn't bother with the nudist label, we just did it.
It's really hard to have children under 18 involved because of how that can be weaponized against you as a parent. Even with both parents involved, it can be weaponized, let alone a situation where one parent uses it against another in a divorce scenario.
And even if it doesn't get weaponized against you, your children will be given a hard time if it gets out. Other parents telling their kids they can't visit, teasing at school, that sort of thing. It is not all sweetness and light.
I remember one time at Deep Creek, one of the women participants mentioned there was a court ruling that prohibited her from allowing her children to attend a nudist event or she'd lose custody to her husband. The %$#@! was using it against her in the custody fight.
Yes. Not uncommon. We need to be more understanding of why people do not engage their children because of things like this. I find there's a lot of well-intentioned persuasion that occurs that doesn't have the full picture. Regardless, there are still lots of exciting ways to think about new paths of entry for young people. Sometimes, you don't want your parent's beer, you want your own! You want to mark the world for yourself and there are wonderful ways to do this with naturism. We need to find the natural leaders in the youth and help them.
Bingo! I'd like to see a professional group of young people touring campuses and visiting events with a lot of young people attending. Do some real market research and figure out the best approach. Obviously, nobody in the N/N community currently in a decision making position has a clue how to do it correctly.
In fact, there may be nobody capable of making a decision. Committees are terrible leaders.
If you can't get enough young people, don't substitute over-30s. Hire some starving actors.
A great example of how screwed up the law is! While there is no law that bans children from attending nudist clubs in Maryland, you have this ridiculous contradictory decision from the court! Go figure!
In family law, the subjective opinion of a judge is often "the law" and if the judge doesn't like nudism...
Dear Fred Heiser, I hope You take a moment to ST/ROLL around with Us during the 2024 #FREErangeSFnudistEXPERIENCE season in San Francisco USA ( Watch @NudeActivism youtube ). Our #NudistWelcomingMerchants are as sign that #SocialPublicNudism is not in decline, despite the handwringing of many Nudists; Economics drive change far more often than whining & ProTests. As @NakedDan attests, the historic annual #Bare2Breakers/#Bay2Breakers which attracts thousands of folks, including families/parents with young children, demonstrates that “Society” has few in any real credible concerns with the display of Human Anatomy or The Human Body in its essential form. The Legions of fans of inter/national WNBR events are also a marvelous tribute to Our INALIENABLE #ClothesFREE Liberty & Codified #1stAmendment Right to defy ancient & modern codes & rulers&rules armed&aimed at shaming deamonizing & criminalizing The Human Body & Our God-Blessed Species-Essential ProCreative, LifeGiving, LifeNurturing, LoveMaking & Joy Organs.
- mARTy
https://freemannoone.substack.com/p/living-his-beliefs?utm_campaign=email-post&r=3ixze9&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email