People who do not approve of gay pride will be the same people who are offended by nudity. Probably 50% of the men in the WNBR-LA are gay. Even higher in the Bare to Breakers. Nudism may not have a connection to sexual alignment but it also has no connection to bicycle safety or gasoline consumption. Every argument made against the Pride parade can and will be used against the WNBR. The same people will say the same things.
From the little I have seen, the people in the Pride parade were not behaving sexually. They were just naked. That makes them part of us. Just as if a bicycle safety advocate demonstrated nude. Or an anti-fur demonstrator. I have yet to see a nude pro-2nd amendment demonstration but if such a miracle happened, I'd support their right to do it naked. You agree on what you agree on and agree to disagree on the rest. Defend their right to be naked even if you disagree with their agenda.
***If you can't be naked in a Pride festival, you can't be naked anywhere.*** That's their objective. Liberty has to be defended at its borders and not wait until you start losing the heartland. We aren't an island and cannot do this alone. We need allies.
Jillian, I agree that the nudist/naturist community might overlap with the LGTBQ+ community, but they are DIFFERENT communities, and attempting to merge the two may be detrimental to both.
I am an LGTBQ+ ally, and feel strongly about the issues the group face, but adding nudist to those does nothing to move the needle in a positive way. Likewise, nudist/naturist groups do not benefit from associating with a group that is defined at least in part by sexual orientation. This links sex yet again to nudism.
Both would be better served to remain separate, even though the discrimination faced is similar and the membership overlaps.
So you think that Pride Month is just about sex and not about the rights of LGBTQ+ folks to be themselves and free to express their sexuality in whatever way they like. Just because someone is gay, bisexual, transgender, lesbian or queer doesn't mean they are all about sexual activity. It is insulting to the LGBTQ+ community to associate them solely with sexual activity. As for nudists who are present at the march they are simply expressing solidarity with their LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters. If the extreme right in this country wants to use this to make a political point, then so be it. No one should behave in such a way solely not to upset bigots and racists.
No, that is not what I meant at all. I said that LGTBQ+ is at least in part defined by sexual orientation. It is this aspect of the LGTBQ+ community makeup that has a linkage to sex.
To state what you did is taking my comment wholly out of context and is demeaning. Please take a step back and before you attack those that support what you say you support simply because you see a small phrase that you feel pigeon holes a group in a way you disagree with.
I'm sorry if I offended or insulted you. That wasn't my intention. I was just engaging in the debate, perhaps a little too aggressively. I did take offense at your statement:
"Likewise, nudist/naturist groups do not benefit from associating with a group that is defined at least in part by sexual orientation. This links sex yet again to nudism. "
I don't think sexual orientation has anything to do with whether those who are not heterosexual actually have sex any more or any less than heterosexuals. I'm sure that there are LGBTQ+ couples, for example, who remain celibate. Why don't you reword the final sentence above to "This links sexual orientation yet again to nudism." and take a look at the optics of that. Why not link sexual orientation to nudism? Nudists are humans and have multiple sexual orientations, so what's the problem with nudists expressing solidarity with other humans who are being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation?
Awesome article! I was one of the members of the GTA Skinny Dippers that marched naked in the parade.
The GTA Skinny Dippers are about being NATURAL. In Human nature, we have the ability to accept, tolerate, forgive, and love! We are the group that accepts all walks of life into the club. We support anyone who wants to express who or what they are, including the LGBTQ+ community.
What wasn’t reported correctly is that there were also women in our group. One self-serving photographer framed what he wanted to see and promptly sensationalized the story so that certain unscrupulous news media companies would pay for the image and use it to promote their own agenda, and that’s growing their bottom line. That’s why you can’t trust the media. That’s the problem with being a human doing. They are looking after themselves and could care less about humanity.
We Naturists/Nudists are human beings being human. Most of the other people are human DOINGS, doing what the masses expect them to do. They are the ones that use criticism and ridicule to try and shame people into fitting their very small box of “NORMAL.”
I was there to support the LGBTQ+ community and our club and promote body acceptance. Every body is perfect for the person that resides within it.
It wasn’t about changing oppressive non-nudity laws. In no way was there a private agenda we were trying to force.
I sincerely liked your article! Thanks so much for reading my response.
For goodness sake, are we really so weak that we are prevented from expressing solidarity with our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters because we are actually afraid of what the bigoted, ignorant, and puritanical right wing might say and do as a consequence? That sounds like a fearful approach that can only lead to a weakening of our potential to express solidarity with other movements that also focus on the right to be who we are and to celebrate our differences.
both movements should be kept separate as you yourself rightly said in the article that one movement is for sexual orientation, & the naturism's objectives are quite different, as naturism has nothing to do with sex. Even if naturists have to extend their support to lgbtq community, then it's ok, however the naturism objectives should not be mingled while doing so.
Jillian, thanks for writing this. I had witnessed some of the media reports about the Toronto Pride parade and the behaviour of some participants with some concern. While I support the right of LGBTQ community to celebrate in events like Pride, I fear that some may have pushed the boundaries a little too far and may have done damage to the brand in the eyes of the public. While I identify as a straight naturist and not as a member of the LGBTQ community, I have many friends who are LGBTQ and am happy to stand next to them against oppression. As members of minority groups, we must all be careful that in promoting our respective causes we don't scare the horses and make things worse, especially in a climate of increasing intolerance towards our existence.
I find all the articles posted on this forum extremely well written and often thought provoking, this one particularly so.
Are any LGBTQ+ rights different from or more or less important than Naturalist rights or even Raelianists rights for that matter?
I think it’s valid that all of these civil rights are just simply human rights and it’s imperative we all support each other in every way that is fair, peaceful, legal and fun.
All the “forces” that attempt to suppress or remove these rights all come from the same place so it’s natural that support for the rights all come from the same place’s al well.
I agree, that the causes are not the same, even though there are people who are both.
I also get the disappointment in your opening paragraphs about the fact that these events were about showcasing non carbon fuel transport, a sort of "coming clean to drive clean, by riding naked", and that the concept of WNBR was actually about nudity second, riding a bike first. Although, it really was inevitable that the naturist community would espouse these events as a show case for nudity in life.
The nakedness in pride parades. Really is asking for the Moms for Liberty et al to get sll moral gatekeepery over public nudity as the line is inevitably blurred the separates nudity as a concept from sex as a concept.
The rights of everybody to have romantic and sexual relationships guided by those neurological or conditioned phenomena behind that voodoo that we do so well is more important to me than my right to be nude. That said, social nudity is Deviant, with a capital D, and that rhymes with T, and that's a couple of letters after Q. As a kid, I was fascinated that there were places where people went to not have to wear clothes. Somehow, smart little deviant that I was, I got the idea that nudism could be a corrective for my culture's mistaken sexual epistemology. Why shouldn't there be an N in that alphabet soup of queerness?
I've been to the beaches in Florida for a few years. There has always been children there. While others are sunbathing nude. And No one ever said anything. I've even walked the beach naked past families playing. Never once has anyone or anything has ever been said! Signs are posted for a reason, to let people know that there are Nudist on this beach. I've even been on Non-Nude sections, Naked around families with beach patrol near bye. And Nothing. It's those Wanna Be Purist Prudes who are destroying our Lifestyle.
Not having tents for any cycling or environmental organizations is outrageous.
Conflating nudism with LGBTQ events has been a concern of mine. The optics are bad. While the two may have some overlap in the sense of body freedom, personal rights and liberty, some folks might think nude beaches are full of the monsters that they make the LGBTQ community to be. The Pride parades are more contentious, and under more scrutiny, with haters than the WNBR. While nudism certainly isn't popularly accepted there is even less tolerance from the hate groups for LGBTQ folks. When I say hate groups, I mean that in a broad sense. I'm referring to anybody who opposes LGBTQ, not just the ones who protest or mouth off. I know I'm not wording this like I want but I'm not eloquent on this topic.
On the topic of nude beaches in Florida, I am more than reasonably scared at our Governor focusing his attention on our nude beaches. This is a man with unchecked power who will pass any legislation that appeals to the basest of the right wing MAGA crowd. It is now a third degree felony for someone to use a bathroom not labeled for the user's assigned birth gender.
"nudists agree with and were showing support for the principle of the event, i.e. to push pedal power over the use of fossil fuels as much as possible"
On the contrary, nudism is about body acceptance, not about political science or political agendas masquerading as junk science.
It is safe to say that most nudists support public nudity whenever permitted. WNBR is supported by nudists for the purpose of supporting nudity.
Hmm. That is a topic for another post: nudists piggybacking on various causes not because they support them, but because they simply want to be naked in public. Or it can be further discussed in this open forum.
I see it as supporting people's right to be nude. What they are doing while they are nude is irrelevant unless they are behaving lewdly. "I don't agree with what they say but I support their right to say it." It is the definition of political freedom.
Every nude (nonlewd) protest that happens without the police stepping in is a good thing for us because it acclimates people to nudity. Doesn't matter what they are demonstrating for or if they are just having fun. I am most interested in how the majority of the spectators reacted and not the conservative influencers.
If we worry about what the scolds will say, we're done. Let's just go hide in our ghettos.
A lot of piggybacking is inevitable because there is overlap in the members of groups. It is going to happen with gays because there's a huge overlap out here. There are significant gay male naturist groups here. Maybe even a majority of single male naturists are gay. No lesbian nudist groups that I know of. They WILL combine their interests, regardless.
Any naturist has to realize that if they appear nude at a public event, particularly at a non-naturist venue, they will be viewed as representing all naturists whether they like it or not. So, with that, comes responsibility. While I’m all for supporting the LGBTQ community, doing that in a positive way, that doesn’t potentially hurt both causes, should have been the objective. It probably was, on the surface. But digging into the details, setting up some participant “do’s and dont’s”, thinking through the media coverage implications, would have gone a long way.
People who do not approve of gay pride will be the same people who are offended by nudity. Probably 50% of the men in the WNBR-LA are gay. Even higher in the Bare to Breakers. Nudism may not have a connection to sexual alignment but it also has no connection to bicycle safety or gasoline consumption. Every argument made against the Pride parade can and will be used against the WNBR. The same people will say the same things.
From the little I have seen, the people in the Pride parade were not behaving sexually. They were just naked. That makes them part of us. Just as if a bicycle safety advocate demonstrated nude. Or an anti-fur demonstrator. I have yet to see a nude pro-2nd amendment demonstration but if such a miracle happened, I'd support their right to do it naked. You agree on what you agree on and agree to disagree on the rest. Defend their right to be naked even if you disagree with their agenda.
***If you can't be naked in a Pride festival, you can't be naked anywhere.*** That's their objective. Liberty has to be defended at its borders and not wait until you start losing the heartland. We aren't an island and cannot do this alone. We need allies.
https://youtu.be/xXH3FeTdb5k
There is nothing wrong with children seeing a naked body, unless their parents have not educated them properly and tried to hide them from seeing any.
I agree with you, William, but there are many evangelicals and others (think Taliban types) who would disagree.
That is no reason to compromise your principles or to change your lifestyle. What's with the "let's not upset the bigots" here?
Jillian, I agree that the nudist/naturist community might overlap with the LGTBQ+ community, but they are DIFFERENT communities, and attempting to merge the two may be detrimental to both.
I am an LGTBQ+ ally, and feel strongly about the issues the group face, but adding nudist to those does nothing to move the needle in a positive way. Likewise, nudist/naturist groups do not benefit from associating with a group that is defined at least in part by sexual orientation. This links sex yet again to nudism.
Both would be better served to remain separate, even though the discrimination faced is similar and the membership overlaps.
"This links sex yet again to nudism."
So you think that Pride Month is just about sex and not about the rights of LGBTQ+ folks to be themselves and free to express their sexuality in whatever way they like. Just because someone is gay, bisexual, transgender, lesbian or queer doesn't mean they are all about sexual activity. It is insulting to the LGBTQ+ community to associate them solely with sexual activity. As for nudists who are present at the march they are simply expressing solidarity with their LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters. If the extreme right in this country wants to use this to make a political point, then so be it. No one should behave in such a way solely not to upset bigots and racists.
No, that is not what I meant at all. I said that LGTBQ+ is at least in part defined by sexual orientation. It is this aspect of the LGTBQ+ community makeup that has a linkage to sex.
To state what you did is taking my comment wholly out of context and is demeaning. Please take a step back and before you attack those that support what you say you support simply because you see a small phrase that you feel pigeon holes a group in a way you disagree with.
I'm sorry if I offended or insulted you. That wasn't my intention. I was just engaging in the debate, perhaps a little too aggressively. I did take offense at your statement:
"Likewise, nudist/naturist groups do not benefit from associating with a group that is defined at least in part by sexual orientation. This links sex yet again to nudism. "
I don't think sexual orientation has anything to do with whether those who are not heterosexual actually have sex any more or any less than heterosexuals. I'm sure that there are LGBTQ+ couples, for example, who remain celibate. Why don't you reword the final sentence above to "This links sexual orientation yet again to nudism." and take a look at the optics of that. Why not link sexual orientation to nudism? Nudists are humans and have multiple sexual orientations, so what's the problem with nudists expressing solidarity with other humans who are being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation?
Hi there!
Awesome article! I was one of the members of the GTA Skinny Dippers that marched naked in the parade.
The GTA Skinny Dippers are about being NATURAL. In Human nature, we have the ability to accept, tolerate, forgive, and love! We are the group that accepts all walks of life into the club. We support anyone who wants to express who or what they are, including the LGBTQ+ community.
What wasn’t reported correctly is that there were also women in our group. One self-serving photographer framed what he wanted to see and promptly sensationalized the story so that certain unscrupulous news media companies would pay for the image and use it to promote their own agenda, and that’s growing their bottom line. That’s why you can’t trust the media. That’s the problem with being a human doing. They are looking after themselves and could care less about humanity.
We Naturists/Nudists are human beings being human. Most of the other people are human DOINGS, doing what the masses expect them to do. They are the ones that use criticism and ridicule to try and shame people into fitting their very small box of “NORMAL.”
I was there to support the LGBTQ+ community and our club and promote body acceptance. Every body is perfect for the person that resides within it.
It wasn’t about changing oppressive non-nudity laws. In no way was there a private agenda we were trying to force.
I sincerely liked your article! Thanks so much for reading my response.
Izaera
proudnudist.com
nudeasnature@yahoo.ca
I'm glad you took the time to reply and give us your perspective on this. Thanks!
For goodness sake, are we really so weak that we are prevented from expressing solidarity with our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters because we are actually afraid of what the bigoted, ignorant, and puritanical right wing might say and do as a consequence? That sounds like a fearful approach that can only lead to a weakening of our potential to express solidarity with other movements that also focus on the right to be who we are and to celebrate our differences.
both movements should be kept separate as you yourself rightly said in the article that one movement is for sexual orientation, & the naturism's objectives are quite different, as naturism has nothing to do with sex. Even if naturists have to extend their support to lgbtq community, then it's ok, however the naturism objectives should not be mingled while doing so.
Jillian, thanks for writing this. I had witnessed some of the media reports about the Toronto Pride parade and the behaviour of some participants with some concern. While I support the right of LGBTQ community to celebrate in events like Pride, I fear that some may have pushed the boundaries a little too far and may have done damage to the brand in the eyes of the public. While I identify as a straight naturist and not as a member of the LGBTQ community, I have many friends who are LGBTQ and am happy to stand next to them against oppression. As members of minority groups, we must all be careful that in promoting our respective causes we don't scare the horses and make things worse, especially in a climate of increasing intolerance towards our existence.
I find all the articles posted on this forum extremely well written and often thought provoking, this one particularly so.
Are any LGBTQ+ rights different from or more or less important than Naturalist rights or even Raelianists rights for that matter?
I think it’s valid that all of these civil rights are just simply human rights and it’s imperative we all support each other in every way that is fair, peaceful, legal and fun.
All the “forces” that attempt to suppress or remove these rights all come from the same place so it’s natural that support for the rights all come from the same place’s al well.
I agree, that the causes are not the same, even though there are people who are both.
I also get the disappointment in your opening paragraphs about the fact that these events were about showcasing non carbon fuel transport, a sort of "coming clean to drive clean, by riding naked", and that the concept of WNBR was actually about nudity second, riding a bike first. Although, it really was inevitable that the naturist community would espouse these events as a show case for nudity in life.
The nakedness in pride parades. Really is asking for the Moms for Liberty et al to get sll moral gatekeepery over public nudity as the line is inevitably blurred the separates nudity as a concept from sex as a concept.
Thought provoking piece, Jillian.
The rights of everybody to have romantic and sexual relationships guided by those neurological or conditioned phenomena behind that voodoo that we do so well is more important to me than my right to be nude. That said, social nudity is Deviant, with a capital D, and that rhymes with T, and that's a couple of letters after Q. As a kid, I was fascinated that there were places where people went to not have to wear clothes. Somehow, smart little deviant that I was, I got the idea that nudism could be a corrective for my culture's mistaken sexual epistemology. Why shouldn't there be an N in that alphabet soup of queerness?
The pleasure of reading fresh insights.
I've been to the beaches in Florida for a few years. There has always been children there. While others are sunbathing nude. And No one ever said anything. I've even walked the beach naked past families playing. Never once has anyone or anything has ever been said! Signs are posted for a reason, to let people know that there are Nudist on this beach. I've even been on Non-Nude sections, Naked around families with beach patrol near bye. And Nothing. It's those Wanna Be Purist Prudes who are destroying our Lifestyle.
"Harming our cause"? We are not the ones comparing us or LGBTQ+ folk to "pedophiles" and "groomers". Let's keep any blame where it belongs.
There is so much in this excellent article.
Not having tents for any cycling or environmental organizations is outrageous.
Conflating nudism with LGBTQ events has been a concern of mine. The optics are bad. While the two may have some overlap in the sense of body freedom, personal rights and liberty, some folks might think nude beaches are full of the monsters that they make the LGBTQ community to be. The Pride parades are more contentious, and under more scrutiny, with haters than the WNBR. While nudism certainly isn't popularly accepted there is even less tolerance from the hate groups for LGBTQ folks. When I say hate groups, I mean that in a broad sense. I'm referring to anybody who opposes LGBTQ, not just the ones who protest or mouth off. I know I'm not wording this like I want but I'm not eloquent on this topic.
On the topic of nude beaches in Florida, I am more than reasonably scared at our Governor focusing his attention on our nude beaches. This is a man with unchecked power who will pass any legislation that appeals to the basest of the right wing MAGA crowd. It is now a third degree felony for someone to use a bathroom not labeled for the user's assigned birth gender.
"nudists agree with and were showing support for the principle of the event, i.e. to push pedal power over the use of fossil fuels as much as possible"
On the contrary, nudism is about body acceptance, not about political science or political agendas masquerading as junk science.
It is safe to say that most nudists support public nudity whenever permitted. WNBR is supported by nudists for the purpose of supporting nudity.
.
Hmm. That is a topic for another post: nudists piggybacking on various causes not because they support them, but because they simply want to be naked in public. Or it can be further discussed in this open forum.
I see it as supporting people's right to be nude. What they are doing while they are nude is irrelevant unless they are behaving lewdly. "I don't agree with what they say but I support their right to say it." It is the definition of political freedom.
Every nude (nonlewd) protest that happens without the police stepping in is a good thing for us because it acclimates people to nudity. Doesn't matter what they are demonstrating for or if they are just having fun. I am most interested in how the majority of the spectators reacted and not the conservative influencers.
If we worry about what the scolds will say, we're done. Let's just go hide in our ghettos.
A lot of piggybacking is inevitable because there is overlap in the members of groups. It is going to happen with gays because there's a huge overlap out here. There are significant gay male naturist groups here. Maybe even a majority of single male naturists are gay. No lesbian nudist groups that I know of. They WILL combine their interests, regardless.
Any naturist has to realize that if they appear nude at a public event, particularly at a non-naturist venue, they will be viewed as representing all naturists whether they like it or not. So, with that, comes responsibility. While I’m all for supporting the LGBTQ community, doing that in a positive way, that doesn’t potentially hurt both causes, should have been the objective. It probably was, on the surface. But digging into the details, setting up some participant “do’s and dont’s”, thinking through the media coverage implications, would have gone a long way.